Legislature(1993 - 1994)
04/25/1994 09:12 AM Senate STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 351 (CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS;WEAPONS POSS.) as the last order of business before the Senate State Affairs Committee and calls Ms. Cotting to testify. BARBARA COTTING, Aide to Representative James, prime sponsor of HB 351, states she will not say a lot about HB 351, since most people are well-versed on it. There is a Senate State Affairs Committee substitute. Ms. Cotting states HB 351 received a lot of work in the house, and she feels it addresses everybody's concerns. Number 569 CHAIRMAN LEMAN notes there was a similar bill, HB 237, before the committee which had a similar concealed carry provision, and so has heard much of the testimony relating to concealed carry. SENATOR TAYLOR asks Ms. Cotting if Representative James has any objection to the committee substitute. MS. COTTING responds Representative James has no objection to the committee substitute. Number 578 CHAIRMAN LEMAN offers the Senate State Affairs Committee substitute to HB 351 and asks if there is any objection. Hearing none, the committee substitute is adopted. The chairman asks Ms. Babcock to run through the changes in the committee substitute. Number 582 PORTIA BABCOCK, Aide to the Senate State Affairs Committee, lists the changes in the committee substitute. TAPE 94-30, SIDE B MS. BABCOCK continues with a run-down of the changes to HB 351. Number 586 SENATOR TAYLOR asks how an applicant for a concealed carry permit would know when the department has received the information needed to process the permit application. Number 582 MS. BABCOCK thinks the applicant would have to inquire that of the Department of Public Safety. The average for receiving information from the FBI is between 35 to 45 days. SENATOR TAYLOR states he doesn't mean to slow anything down; it just came to him, how would anyone know how long it takes. Number 570 C.E. SWACKHAMMER, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety, states the average time it takes to receive information from the FBI is 26 days. It is anticipated that with the sex offender (Oprah Winfrey) legislation that just passed, that time frame will move up. The department thinks it will be able to comply with the time frame set up in the bill. Number 569 MS. BABCOCK proceeds with outlining the changes to HB 351. Number 552 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks what action types are there. MS. BABCOCK responds the action types are revolver and semi- automatic. Number 550 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why put in the words "...but may not specifically identify a handgun by make, model, or serial number." Number 544 MS. BABCOCK replies it was to keep the bill from ever becoming a gun registration mechanism. Number 541 SENATOR TAYLOR relates an example of why we might want to require the serial number of a gun. Number 533 MS. BABCOCK states one of the concerns was that if a person was qualified on ten different firearms, and had to give the make, model, and serial number of those firearms, then the Department of Public Safety will have record of all those handguns. Number 524 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if that phrase would prevent someone from providing that information if they wish to do so. Number 521 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds the department would most likely not collect that information. Number 510 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 464 SENATOR TAYLOR asks, on page 5, line 30, if "may" shouldn't be "shall". Number 455 MS. BABCOCK responds the intent is clear earlier on in the bill that a background check will be done. CHAIRMAN LEMAN states he thinks it should say "will", instead of "may". The chairman asks that a note be made to check on that with the bill drafter. Number 448 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 410 SENATOR TAYLOR states he wants to take a look at using the driver's license format for concealed carry permits. MR. SWACKHAMMER thinks that is a good idea, but the problem that the department ran into was separating the license from the permit in an instance where one is revoked and the other is not revoked. Mr. Swackhammer suggests the use of a sticker on the driver's license that would accomplish the same thing. SENATOR TAYLOR thinks that if a person's driver's license is revoked, there is probably a reason we would also want to revoke their concealed carry permit. Senator Taylor also does not want permittees to go for eight years before having to take recertification classes. Senator Taylor believes police officers must take recertification courses annually. Number 375 MR. SWACKHAMMER states that police officers must qualify three times a year, one of which is a supervised shoot. The Department of Public Safety agrees with Senator Taylor that eight years is too long a period to go before recertification is required. Number 363 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks the permit renewal should go to every five years, with recertification courses concurrent with renewal. Number 356 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks that Senator Taylor's comment be noted. Number 354 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 343 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why, as specified on page 7, the Department of Public Safety is only going to take a thumbprint to verify the set of prints the applicant brings in. Why is the department not taking the prints itself. Number 338 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds the intent is to keep the applicant from having to go out and get another complete set of prints taken. The department is not going to put the prints into the fingerprint system. That is on the renewal stage only. SENATOR TAYLOR asks why the department won't take the prints, when they have the equipment available. MR. SWACKHAMMER replies the department does not have the equipment ent available. SENATOR TAYLOR asks why we would want to allow someone to make their own fingerprints. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds there are approved places where people can get fingerprints taken. It is the intent to specify in regulation that applicants must get fingerprints taken at approved locations. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there will be commercial places where people can get fingerprints taken. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds that there are already commercial places where people can get fingerprints taken. SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Swackhammer where the language is in HB 351 giving the department the authority to set up regulations stating where fingerprints shall be taken. Senator Taylor states without the authority, the department cannot set up regulations. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds there is a section in the back of HB 351 giving the department the authority to set up regulations to implement specific sections of the bill. Number 305 SENATOR TAYLOR asks where the section is for setting up regulations on fingerprints. (At this point, there is a lot of static on the tape and the answer is not discernable.) SENATOR TAYLOR wants language inserted stating fingerprints will be taken at an approved site. Number 295 CHAIRMAN LEMAN announces it is his intent to hold HB 351 over until Wednesday's hearing. Items of concern will be worked on between now and Wednesday. Number 290 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 269 SENATOR MILLER asks for clarification on whether not having a concealed carry permit was only a violation if that person was carrying a concealed weapon. MS. BABCOCK states the bill specifies that a permittee will carry the permit at all times the permittee carries a concealed weapon. MR. SWACKHAMMER comments that requiring a permittee to carry a permit at all times, even when not carrying a concealed weapon, would be like requiring someone to carry their driver's license while walking down the street. CHAIRMAN LEMAN adds he has been asked for his driver's license at times when he wasn't driving. MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 248 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what people are going to do in instances where they are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon. He gives an example of a woman who is carrying a gun for personal protection, and asks what this woman is going to do when she goes to her child's school, to the court house, to the bank, and to the woman's shelter-all in one day, while trying to carry a concealed weapon. Number 224 MS. BABCOCK responds the primary place concealed weapons will not be allowed is in a bar. Ms. Babcock continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 211 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what the current regulations are concerning the carrying of weapons by off-duty police officers. Number 207 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds he can only speak for the Department of Public Safety officers. Anytime an officer is consuming alcohol, he is not to be armed. There are no other restrictions. DPS's regulations deal solely with the consumption of alcohol. Number 195 SENATOR MILLER asks how HB 351 would apply to a restaurant that has an alcohol license. MS. BABCOCK responds it is already in law that a weapon, whether carried openly or concealed, cannot be carried in places where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises. SENATOR MILLER asks if an off duty police officer could carry a loaded weapon in a place where alcohol is served. MS. BABCOCK asks if it is in statute that officers are exempt from that law. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds it is not. (Apparently off-duty police officers are allowed to carry a loaded weapon in a place where alcohol is served for consumption on the premises, as long as the officers are not consuming alcohol.) SENATOR MILLER comments that is a double-standard. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if an unloaded firearm could be carried. MS. BABCOCK responds they could. SENATOR TAYLOR comments people aren't going to go through the process of unloading their weapon. (At this point, there are several different conversations going on around the committee table. There is general discussion of a double-standard in relation to the carrying of a firearm by a private individual and the carrying of a firearm by an off-duty police officer.) Number 171 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 127 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what the other prohibited weapons would be. Number 121 MS. BABCOCK responds those would be switch blades, explosives, gravity knives, brass knuckles, etcetera. MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 094 SENATOR TAYLOR is concerned that citizens are being required to meet higher standards than those police officers are required to meet. Senator Taylor wants a system that encourages people to seek treatment for alcohol problems, not discourage seeking help. He asks Mr. Swackhammer how he thinks the standards police officers are required to meet and those citizens are required to meet could be made more equitable. Number 050 MR. SWACKHAMMER says the difference between a police officer and a private citizen is that the police officers can be much more highly supervised than the general citizenry. Number 027 SENATOR TAYLOR asks if it will be possible for an applicant to have somewhat of a checkered past. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds he does not have a copy of the Alaska Police Standards Council regulations... TAPE 94-31, SIDE A Number 001 MR. SWACKHAMMER outlines the guidelines for dealing with drug and alcohol use by police officers and recruits. Mr. Swackhammer states that police officers are held to much higher standards that other citizens. Number 035 SENATOR TAYLOR states he asks because there have always been problems with substance abuse in high-stress occupations, and he wants to make sure there is a half-way level playing field. He does expect a higher standard where officers are concerned. Senator Taylor relates an incident in which an intoxicated police officer discharged all six rounds from his revolver inside the police station. Senator Taylor asks if an officer can get treatment and not lose his career. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds yes. An officer would be on probationary status for a long time after treatment. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Babcock if she has further comments. MS. BABCOCK replies she has none at this time. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Swackhammer for the department's position regarding the changes to HB 351. Number 100 MR. SWACKHAMMER states for the record that he appreciates Representative James and Senator Leman's office for addressing the concerns of the Department of Public Safety. The department does support the changes; the department believes they are reasonable. If a bill must be passed, HB 351 would be the best vehicle. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Swackhammer if the department believes the bill has the protections the department believes are necessary. Number 106 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds it does. Number 108 MS. BABCOCK adds there is one additional change that should be made to the cs to HB 351. The change is on page 9, line 21 of the cs. The language in the cs states the department and its' employees are not liable. This language was changed in House Judiciary to specify that the state and its' officers and employees are not liable. She recommends incorporating House Judiciary's language into the cs. Number 120 SENATOR TAYLOR makes a motion to amend the Senate State Affairs Committee substitute. On page 9, line 21, delete the word "department", insert the word "state". CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is any objection to that amendment. Hearing none, the chairman states amendment #1 has been adopted. SENATOR TAYLOR offers amendment #2. On page 2, line 29, a conceptual amendment which would make certain that fingerprints would be taken at an approved site. Number 138 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is any objection to amendment #2. Hearing none, the chairman states amendment #2 has been adopted. SENATOR TAYLOR offers amendment #3. On page 3, line 20, change the word "four" to the word "five". Senator Taylor wants to tie in the permitting process and the refresher courses with the driver's licenses. Number 157 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Senator Taylor if the committee can wait until Wednesday to take up that set of amendments. SENATOR TAYLOR discusses amendment #3. Number 173 CHAIRMAN LEMAN thinks that the set of amendments involved in amendment #3 are linked. He would like to hear testimony on amendment #3 on Wednesday. SENATOR TAYLOR does not think it is too much of a burden to require people to take a recertification course once every five years. Number 183 MS. BABCOCK comments that the only problem that might occur in coordinating driver's licenses with concealed carry permits is keeping up with revocations or suspensions. SENATOR TAYLOR thinks that if a person has enough violations to cause their driver's license to be suspended, then perhaps they should not be carrying a concealed weapon either. MS. BABCOCK responds the Department of Public Safety was more concerned about revoking the permit to carry a concealed weapon. MR. SWACKHAMMER thinks the department can accommodate showing concealed carry permits on ADL's (Alaska Driver's Licenses) through a sticker system. SENATOR TAYLOR says as long as it is really visible that would be okay. He would rather have it right on the license, though. Number 207 CHAIRMAN LEMAN suggests the committee might not want to restrict the department's ability to use new technology as it is developed. Number 215 SENATOR TAYLOR says if a person gets themself in a situation where either their ADL or their permit to carry is revoked, they should have to come back in and get a new license. Number 222 MS. BABCOCK states there is one other minor change that needs to be made on page 13, line 6 of the committee substitute. The words "or impose" should be inserted between the words "remove" and "a". CHAIRMAN LEMAN states he will move that amendment as amendment #3. The chairman asks if there is any objection. Hearing none, the amendment has been adopted. Number 236 CHAIRMAN LEMAN states the other conceptual amendments will be held until Wednesday. SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Swackhammer if those amendments would change the department's position on HB 351. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds that the Department of Public Safety does not support the concept of permitting for concealed carry, but if the legislature is going to pass a bill, HB 351 is the best form. SENATOR TAYLOR states he is asking because the Governor has indicated that he will sign this into law, as long as it meets with concerns that have been raised by the Department of Public Safety. Senator Taylor asks if HB 351 is meeting those concerns. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds it is meeting the concerns of the department.
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